NetBSD Problem Report #33495
From www@NetBSD.org Tue May 16 15:06:52 2006
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:06:52 +0000 (UTC)
From: dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
Reply-To: dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
To: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Subject: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
X-Send-Pr-Version: www-1.0
>Number: 33495
>Category: misc
>Synopsis: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
>Confidential: no
>Severity: serious
>Priority: medium
>Responsible: misc-bug-people
>State: closed
>Class: change-request
>Submitter-Id: net
>Arrival-Date: Tue May 16 15:10:00 +0000 2006
>Closed-Date: Sat Oct 07 04:22:00 +0000 2006
>Last-Modified: Sat Oct 07 04:22:00 +0000 2006
>Originator: Daniel Weiss
>Release: 1.2
>Organization:
Concordia University IITS
>Environment:
n/a
>Description:
Hi there, I'm a network technician at Concordia University. We use your netbsd fortune package with one of our net monitoring programs. There's a database of quotes that pops up at the start of every session which is quite enjoyable. However, one of the these quotes is by Adolph Hitler and is quite offensive to women and certain ethnicities. I hope that you have facility to remove this harmful quotation and replace it with something that is more appropriate for public use.
Thank you for your time and attention,
Daniel
Concordia University
IITS Network Assessment and Implementation
dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
>How-To-Repeat:
>Fix:
>Release-Note:
>Audit-Trail:
From: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
To: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org, misc-bug-people@netbsd.org,
gnats-admin@netbsd.org, netbsd-bugs@netbsd.org
Cc:
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:32:49 -0400
On May 16, 3:10pm, dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca (dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote:
-- Subject: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| >Number: 33495
| >Category: misc
| >Synopsis: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| >Confidential: no
| >Severity: serious
| >Priority: medium
| >Responsible: misc-bug-people
| >State: open
| >Class: change-request
| >Submitter-Id: net
| >Arrival-Date: Tue May 16 15:10:00 +0000 2006
| >Originator: Daniel Weiss
| >Release: 1.2
| >Organization:
| Concordia University IITS
| >Environment:
| n/a
| >Description:
| Hi there, I'm a network technician at Concordia University. We use your netbsd fortune package with one of our net monitoring programs. There's a database of quotes that pops up at the start of every session which is quite enjoyable. However, one of the these quotes is by Adolph Hitler and is quite offensive to women and certain ethnicities. I hope that you have facility to remove this harmful quotation and replace it with something that is more appropriate for public use.
| Thank you for your time and attention,
The fortune database has the following 5 quotes from Adolph Hitler:
Everlasting peace will come to the world when the last man has slain
the last but one.
-- Adolph Hitler
I shall give a propagandist reason for starting the war, no matter whether
it is plausible or not. The victor will not be asked afterwards whether
he told the truth or not. When starting and waging war it is not right
that matters, but victory.
-- Adolph Hitler
Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.
-- Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"
The very first essential for success is a perpetually
constant and regular employment of violence.
-- Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"
What luck for the rulers that men do not think.
-- Adolph Hitler
Which one(s) do you find offending.
christos
From: Hauke Fath <hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE>
To: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
Cc: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:23:23 +0200
At 14:32 Uhr -0400 16.5.2006, Christos Zoulas wrote:
>The fortune database has the following 5 quotes from Adolph Hitler:
[...]
's/Adolph/Adolf/g'.
There are more with his name spelled correctly, like:
A highly intelligent man should take a primitive woman. Imagine if on top
of everything else, I had a woman who interfered with my work.
-- Adolf Hitler
A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing -- tender, sweet,
and stupid.
-- Adolf Hitler
Apart from that, 'man fortune' has
-o Choose only from potentially offensive aphorisms. Please, please,
please request a potentially offensive fortune if and only if you
believe, deep down in your heart, that you are willing to be
offended. (And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o rather
than give us grief about it, okay?)
hauke
--
"It's never straight up and down" (DEVO)
From: Christos Zoulas <christos@netbsd.org>
To: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Cc:
Subject: PR/33495 CVS commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 20:13:51 +0000 (UTC)
Module Name: src
Committed By: christos
Date: Tue May 16 20:13:51 UTC 2006
Modified Files:
src/games/fortune/datfiles: fortunes2 fortunes2-o.real
Log Message:
PR/33495: Daniel Weiss: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
- Move 2 offensive to women Adolf Hitler quotes to fortune2-o
- s/Adolph/Adolf/
To generate a diff of this commit:
cvs rdiff -r1.28 -r1.29 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2
cvs rdiff -r1.9 -r1.10 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes2-o.real
Please note that diffs are not public domain; they are subject to the
copyright notices on the relevant files.
From: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
To: <gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>
Cc:
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:01:36 -0400
Hi thanks for getting back to me so quickly. The particular quote that I
found offensive had something to do with women being dumb or stupid and was
very obviously discriminatory to women. Also, the fact that Adolph Hitler
was chosen as the man to quote... There are so many great people to quote in
the world. Adolph Hitler happens to have killed close to 18 million people
all within the last century. I think many of the worlds workers would find
it very unpleasant to log onto their workstation and have good morning come
from Hitler. Especially people that have suffered the loss of a family
member in the holocaust, this is extremely upsetting. I hope this helps
clarify the situation.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Christos Zoulas [mailto:christos@zoulas.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 2:35 PM
To: misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org; gnats-admin@NetBSD.org;
netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org; dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
The following reply was made to PR misc/33495; it has been noted by GNATS.
From: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
To: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org, misc-bug-people@netbsd.org,
gnats-admin@netbsd.org, netbsd-bugs@netbsd.org
Cc:
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:32:49 -0400
On May 16, 3:10pm, dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca (dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca)
wrote:
-- Subject: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| >Number: 33495
| >Category: misc
| >Synopsis: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| >Confidential: no
| >Severity: serious
| >Priority: medium
| >Responsible: misc-bug-people
| >State: open
| >Class: change-request
| >Submitter-Id: net
| >Arrival-Date: Tue May 16 15:10:00 +0000 2006
| >Originator: Daniel Weiss
| >Release: 1.2
| >Organization:
| Concordia University IITS
| >Environment:
| n/a
| >Description:
| Hi there, I'm a network technician at Concordia University. We use your
netbsd fortune package with one of our net monitoring programs. There's a
database of quotes that pops up at the start of every session which is quite
enjoyable. However, one of the these quotes is by Adolph Hitler and is quite
offensive to women and certain ethnicities. I hope that you have facility to
remove this harmful quotation and replace it with something that is more
appropriate for public use.
| Thank you for your time and attention,
The fortune database has the following 5 quotes from Adolph Hitler:
Everlasting peace will come to the world when the last man has slain
the last but one.
-- Adolph Hitler
I shall give a propagandist reason for starting the war, no matter
whether
it is plausible or not. The victor will not be asked afterwards
whether
he told the truth or not. When starting and waging war it is not
right
that matters, but victory.
-- Adolph Hitler
Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.
-- Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"
The very first essential for success is a perpetually
constant and regular employment of violence.
-- Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"
What luck for the rulers that men do not think.
-- Adolph Hitler
Which one(s) do you find offending.
christos
From: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
To: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org, misc-bug-people@netbsd.org,
gnats-admin@netbsd.org, netbsd-bugs@netbsd.org,
dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
Cc:
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:31:18 -0400
On May 16, 9:10pm, dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca ("Daniel Weiss") wrote:
-- Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| The following reply was made to PR misc/33495; it has been noted by GNATS.
|
| From: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
| To: <gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>
| Cc:
| Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:01:36 -0400
|
| Hi thanks for getting back to me so quickly. The particular quote that I
| found offensive had something to do with women being dumb or stupid and was
| very obviously discriminatory to women. Also, the fact that Adolph Hitler
| was chosen as the man to quote... There are so many great people to quote in
| the world. Adolph Hitler happens to have killed close to 18 million people
| all within the last century. I think many of the worlds workers would find
| it very unpleasant to log onto their workstation and have good morning come
| from Hitler. Especially people that have suffered the loss of a family
| member in the holocaust, this is extremely upsetting. I hope this helps
| clarify the situation.
| Dan
Well, we have to draw the line somewhere on what is offensive or not.
I am all for free speech and I don't believe in banning books to avoid
poisoning people's minds. I have moved the two offensive fortunes to
fortunes2-o, but I have left the non-offensive ones alone. Remember there
are quotes from Stalin too in the fortunes database, where do we stop?
christos
From: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
To: <gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>, <misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org>,
<gnats-admin@NetBSD.org>, <netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org>
Cc: <christos@zoulas.com>
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:27:17 -0400
Good morning,
"And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o rather
than give us grief about it, okay?)"
I'd like to start out by saying I'm not trying to give anybody grief. I
e-mailed a support database for support. This isn't about giving YOU grief
it was that I clearly had a problem with some of the quotes in the database.
Currently we have stopped using the fortune package. I was hoping to find a
way to simply remove the harmful quotes from the database. There are several
hundred people on our campus that use the software that implements the
fortune package.
"A highly intelligent man should take a primitive woman.
Imagine if on top of everything else, I had a woman who
interfered with my work."
-- Adolf Hitler
"A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing --
tender, sweet, and stupid."
-- Adolf Hitler
A perfect example of something offensive...
"Choose only from potentially offensive aphorisms"
You don't find any of the above statements potentially offensive? Okay. Can
you understand that other people may find them offensive? Is it possible to
choose statements that are less politically charged for publicly distributed
software?
Please note, I'm not trying to but heads with you, I'm trying to find a
solution to this problem.
Have a good day,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Hauke Fath [mailto:hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 3:50 PM
To: misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org; gnats-admin@NetBSD.org;
netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org; dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
The following reply was made to PR misc/33495; it has been noted by GNATS.
From: Hauke Fath <hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE>
To: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
Cc: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:23:23 +0200
At 14:32 Uhr -0400 16.5.2006, Christos Zoulas wrote:
>The fortune database has the following 5 quotes from Adolph Hitler:
[...]
's/Adolph/Adolf/g'.
There are more with his name spelled correctly, like:
A highly intelligent man should take a primitive woman. Imagine if on top
of everything else, I had a woman who interfered with my work.
-- Adolf Hitler
A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing -- tender, sweet,
and stupid.
-- Adolf Hitler
Apart from that, 'man fortune' has
-o Choose only from potentially offensive aphorisms. Please,
please,
please request a potentially offensive fortune if and only if
you
believe, deep down in your heart, that you are willing to be
offended. (And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o
rather
than give us grief about it, okay?)
hauke
--
"It's never straight up and down" (DEVO)
From: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
To: <gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>, <misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org>,
<gnats-admin@NetBSD.org>, <netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org>
Cc: <dabrams@alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:45:40 -0400
Good morning,
Christos Zoulas says:
"Well, we have to draw the line somewhere on what is offensive or not."
You bring up a valid point. Please note the response I received from one of
your support team.
Hauke Fath says:
"Choose only from potentially offensive aphorisms."
A highly intelligent man should take a primitive woman. Imagine if on top
of everything else, I had a woman who interfered with my work.
-- Adolf Hitler
A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing -- tender, sweet, and
stupid.
-- Adolf Hitler
There's a good spot to draw the line. It is discriminatory to over half of
the world's population. Not to mention all the ethnicities Hitler tried to
wipe out. I'm asking that you think before selecting the quotations as your
actions affect others.
"I have moved the two offensive fortunes to
fortunes2-o, but I have left the non-offensive ones alone"
Perhaps I wasn't %100 clear. Hitler is part of the offensive quote. The
scary thing is I feel as though I've hit a nerve with some people. Is there
really no one else you revere to quote in the fortune's program?
Have a good day,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Christos Zoulas [mailto:christos@zoulas.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 6:35 PM
To: misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org; gnats-admin@NetBSD.org;
netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org; dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
The following reply was made to PR misc/33495; it has been noted by GNATS.
From: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
To: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org, misc-bug-people@netbsd.org,
gnats-admin@netbsd.org, netbsd-bugs@netbsd.org,
dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
Cc:
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:31:18 -0400
On May 16, 9:10pm, dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca ("Daniel Weiss") wrote:
-- Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| The following reply was made to PR misc/33495; it has been noted by
GNATS.
|
| From: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
| To: <gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>
| Cc:
| Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:01:36 -0400
|
| Hi thanks for getting back to me so quickly. The particular quote that I
| found offensive had something to do with women being dumb or stupid and
was
| very obviously discriminatory to women. Also, the fact that Adolph
Hitler
| was chosen as the man to quote... There are so many great people to
quote in
| the world. Adolph Hitler happens to have killed close to 18 million
people
| all within the last century. I think many of the worlds workers would
find
| it very unpleasant to log onto their workstation and have good morning
come
| from Hitler. Especially people that have suffered the loss of a family
| member in the holocaust, this is extremely upsetting. I hope this helps
| clarify the situation.
| Dan
Well, we have to draw the line somewhere on what is offensive or not.
I am all for free speech and I don't believe in banning books to avoid
poisoning people's minds. I have moved the two offensive fortunes to
fortunes2-o, but I have left the non-offensive ones alone. Remember there
are quotes from Stalin too in the fortunes database, where do we stop?
christos
From: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
To: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>,
<gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>, <misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org>,
<gnats-admin@NetBSD.org>, <netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org>
Cc:
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:47:38 -0400
On May 17, 9:27am, dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca ("Daniel Weiss") wrote:
-- Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| Good morning,
|
| "And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o rather
| than give us grief about it, okay?)"
|
| I'd like to start out by saying I'm not trying to give anybody grief. I
| e-mailed a support database for support. This isn't about giving YOU grief
| it was that I clearly had a problem with some of the quotes in the database.
| Currently we have stopped using the fortune package. I was hoping to find a
| way to simply remove the harmful quotes from the database. There are several
| hundred people on our campus that use the software that implements the
| fortune package.
|
|
| "A highly intelligent man should take a primitive woman.
| Imagine if on top of everything else, I had a woman who
| interfered with my work."
| -- Adolf Hitler
|
| "A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing --
| tender, sweet, and stupid."
| -- Adolf Hitler
|
|
| A perfect example of something offensive...
|
As mentioned in the previous mail, those two quotes have been moved in
the offensive database.
christos
From: christos@zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
To: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>,
<gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>, <misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org>,
<gnats-admin@NetBSD.org>, <netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org>
Cc: <dabrams@alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:54:08 -0400
On May 17, 9:45am, dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca ("Daniel Weiss") wrote:
-- Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
| There's a good spot to draw the line. It is discriminatory to over half of
| the world's population. Not to mention all the ethnicities Hitler tried to
| wipe out. I'm asking that you think before selecting the quotations as your
| actions affect others.
|
| "I have moved the two offensive fortunes to
| fortunes2-o, but I have left the non-offensive ones alone"
|
| Perhaps I wasn't %100 clear. Hitler is part of the offensive quote. The
| scary thing is I feel as though I've hit a nerve with some people. Is there
| really no one else you revere to quote in the fortune's program?
I did not put the original quotes there, and I am not a Hitler fan.
I have moved the two offensive to women Hitler quotes to the
offensive database, but I don't think it is appropriate to remove
the rest. Removing the remaining quotes would be in my opinion
sensorship. I would like to remind you again that the fortunes
database also contains quotes from Stalin, Genghis Khan, etc. Yes,
we could restrict our fortune database to contain quotes only from
Disney characters, but that would not make it very interesting.
christos
From: Hauke Fath <hf@spg.tu-darmstadt.de>
To: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
Cc: <gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>, <misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org>,
<gnats-admin@NetBSD.org>, <christos@zoulas.com>
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:59:55 +0200
Am 17.05.2006 um 9:27 Uhr -0400 schrieb Daniel Weiss:
>
> "And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o rather
> than give us grief about it, okay?)"
>
>I'd like to start out by saying I'm not trying to give anybody grief.
[...]
Unfortunately, you have misunderstood completely.
fortune(6) has an '-o' option that selects an additional database
with (potentially) offensive fortunes. The two Hitler citations I
spotted were not in that database, but in the 'vanilla' one. Christos
Zoulas has moved them over in the meantime (thanks!).
What I cited was an excerpt from the fortune(6) man page. It was
intended for explanation, in no way as a slur in your direction. I am
sorry if terseness has created a different impression.
hauke
--
/~\ The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Hauke Fath
\ / No HTML/RTF in email Institut für Nachrichtentechnik
X No Word docs in email TU Darmstadt
/ \ Respect for open standards Ruf +49-6151-16-3281
From: Quentin Garnier <cube@cubidou.net>
To: Daniel Weiss <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
Cc: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:02:53 +0200
--/9ZOS6odDaRI+0hI
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 09:45:40AM -0400, Daniel Weiss wrote:
> Christos Zoulas says:
>=20
> "Well, we have to draw the line somewhere on what is offensive or not."
>=20
> You bring up a valid point. Please note the response I received from one =
of
> your support team.
There is no such thing as a "NetBSD support team". This list is fully
public, anybody can speak up any time on any subject.
[...]
> "I have moved the two offensive fortunes to
> fortunes2-o, but I have left the non-offensive ones alone"
>=20
> Perhaps I wasn't %100 clear. Hitler is part of the offensive quote. The
> scary thing is I feel as though I've hit a nerve with some people. Is the=
re
> really no one else you revere to quote in the fortune's program?=20
People can be offended by so many things. If the current US president
had said anything quote-worthy, we could have added them, but then the
grammar-savvy folks would have been offended.
I'm sure I can feel offended by some of the quotes about French people
if I put enough effort in it.
--=20
Quentin Garnier - cube@cubidou.net - cube@NetBSD.org
"When I find the controls, I'll go where I like, I'll know where I want
to be, but maybe for now I'll stay right here on a silent sea."
KT Tunstall, Silent Sea, Eye to the Telescope, 2004.
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From: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
To: <gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org>
Cc:
Subject: RE: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:43:41 -0400
Wow, you guys really do hate the US! What a rude and inappropriate comment.
My problem with comments like that is that all they're meant to do is
insight hate. I was under the impression that you were a company. Perhaps I
was mistaken. I'm from Canada as a matter of fact. I'm not trying to find
something offensive. It is offensive. I think you're all getting distracted
from my original point. I actually hadn't realized there were so many
quotations in the database that were offensive. I hadn't been using it that
much. You yourself identified one that you thought might be offensive with
regards to French people. There's your starting point. I asked if you could
remove some harmful quotations. You said no. Thanks for your time and
attention. You have made your position clear as crystal.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Garnier [mailto:cube@cubidou.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:05 AM
To: misc-bug-people@NetBSD.org; gnats-admin@NetBSD.org;
netbsd-bugs@NetBSD.org; dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
The following reply was made to PR misc/33495; it has been noted by GNATS.
From: Quentin Garnier <cube@cubidou.net>
To: Daniel Weiss <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
Cc: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:02:53 +0200
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On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 09:45:40AM -0400, Daniel Weiss wrote:
> Christos Zoulas says:
>=20
> "Well, we have to draw the line somewhere on what is offensive or not."
>=20
> You bring up a valid point. Please note the response I received from one
=
of
> your support team.
There is no such thing as a "NetBSD support team". This list is fully
public, anybody can speak up any time on any subject.
[...]
> "I have moved the two offensive fortunes to
> fortunes2-o, but I have left the non-offensive ones alone"
>=20
> Perhaps I wasn't %100 clear. Hitler is part of the offensive quote. The
> scary thing is I feel as though I've hit a nerve with some people. Is
the=
re
> really no one else you revere to quote in the fortune's program?=20
People can be offended by so many things. If the current US president
had said anything quote-worthy, we could have added them, but then the
grammar-savvy folks would have been offended.
I'm sure I can feel offended by some of the quotes about French people
if I put enough effort in it.
--=20
Quentin Garnier - cube@cubidou.net - cube@NetBSD.org
"When I find the controls, I'll go where I like, I'll know where I want
to be, but maybe for now I'll stay right here on a silent sea."
KT Tunstall, Silent Sea, Eye to the Telescope, 2004.
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From: Martin Husemann <martin@duskware.de>
To: Daniel Weiss <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
Cc: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:53:04 +0200
On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 02:45:01PM +0000, Daniel Weiss wrote:
> You have made your position clear as crystal.
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is what happened. There is some
misunderstanding going on. The offensive quotes have been "removed",
for some value of "remove" that nicely fits the fortune environment.
Un-fortun(e)-atley now we'll have to censor this problem report out of the
database, as we can't let negative customer feedback survive.
:-)
Martin
From: Quentin Garnier <cube@cubidou.net>
To: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Cc:
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 17:04:02 +0200
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On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 02:55:01PM +0000, Martin Husemann wrote:
> The following reply was made to PR misc/33495; it has been noted by GNATS.
>=20
> From: Martin Husemann <martin@duskware.de>
> To: Daniel Weiss <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
> Cc: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
> Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:53:04 +0200
>=20
> On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 02:45:01PM +0000, Daniel Weiss wrote:
> > You have made your position clear as crystal.=20
> =20
> I'm sorry, but I don't think this is what happened. There is some=20
> misunderstanding going on. The offensive quotes have been "removed",
> for some value of "remove" that nicely fits the fortune environment.
The misunderstanding is on what is offensive and what isn't. David
here claims that speaking the word "Hitler" is offensive and (I quote)
"harmful".
So apparently offensive quotes have been removed for some value of
"offensive", too.
> Un-fortun(e)-atley now we'll have to censor this problem report out of t=
he
> database, as we can't let negative customer feedback survive.
We should only use proper Australian english for the project, too. And
I want it yellow.
--=20
Quentin Garnier - cube@cubidou.net - cube@NetBSD.org
"When I find the controls, I'll go where I like, I'll know where I want
to be, but maybe for now I'll stay right here on a silent sea."
KT Tunstall, Silent Sea, Eye to the Telescope, 2004.
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From: Arto Selonen <arto@selonen.org>
To: gnats-bugs@netbsd.org
Cc:
Subject: Re: misc/33495
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:49:04 +0300 (EEST)
Hi!
Even though this PR might have already outlived its usefulness, I can't
help but offer some viewpoints, mostly for future reference in handling
these types of problems (in fortune(6), man pages, other documents, etc).
The main problem is that anything can be offensive to anybody, and this
could change very rapidly (think of any accident/catastrophe/etc that can
turn a positive thing into something very bad). One can not foresee these,
and so any reference can become offensive/rude.
Strongly related to this are the questions of "does anybody have a right
to not be offended?", and "how much effort should be put into trying to
avoid offending others?".
With regards to fortune(6), I think there should be a certain expectation
of getting offended, as there are lots of all sorts of aphorisms, jokes,
quotes, and what not in there (man page uses the term 'adage', which
according to the definitions google offers is reasonably accurate).
However, the man page also gives a somewhat false impression that some
"fortune cookies" might not be offensive. I'll argue that to be false.
*There are only potentially offensive adages there*. Some are "known" to
almost certainly offend many people, some have so far simply failed to
find the "wrong" audience for that particular piece.
So, the main change could be made to fortune(6) man page, so it would
remind readers of the potentially offensive content in there, regardless
of the category used. "Some effort has been made to classify the contents
into categories such as 'almost certainly offensive' and 'less offensive'.
However, due to the nature of these 'fortunes', any one of them may
offend you due to its content, relation to your life situation, or the
source or context of the quote. Therefore, it is simply impossible to
guarantee 100% non-offensive content in here. You have been warned."
(I just hate disclaimers).
As for classifying content into various levels of offensiveness:
(and I'm not referring to this specific PR, but rather to any content)
- just because the content references some group in a negative
manner, it does not automatically offend *all* those people
(eg. "Everybody is an idiot." => ~6 billion potentially offended)
- the content may not be offensive, but the context where it
comes from may offend those recognizing it, or those
who associate it with their own negative experiences
relating to it
(eg. whatever Hitler said may be offensive to many)
- even a very offensive content may have other values, such as
historical perspective, reminder of the dangers associated
with a concept, etc; there may be more value in making sure
the lesson is not forgotten, even if it means being offended
- truth may also be offensive, is lying or ignorance better, then?
- NetBSD may be used by children, should all content be made
"child-proof"? who should decide what is child-proof?
how does that relate to preserving some of the UNIX history
like command names, inside jokes, etc?
- what may have been funny might now be offensive, and what once
was offensive, may now be funny (possibly just because it used
to be offensive); how much effort should/could be put into
constantly re-classifying the contents as times and people change
- who could possibly make any classification decision correctly?
- NetBSD is a global effort, yet the world has not yet turned into
one homogeneous group, where we all share the same values and
experiences, so it can not possibly please everybody at the same
time while doing the same thing; there are only limited resources
for customizing it to various uses, however the source is
available and quite liberally licensed for everybody to make
their own modifications, should they so choose
Im summary: I find it impossible to classify content more than simply
saying "This may offend you". Maybe others are more successful.
I can only hope that people will be able to find strength,
once offended, to get past that experience and be able to
forgive others, understanding that the meaning was never to
purposefully offend in the first place.
Disclaimer: I don't represent anybody but myself, though I am thankful
for the NetBSD developers for their continued work, that has
made it possible for me to use the OS successfully for several
years in various environments.
Sincerely,
Arto Selonen
PS. My 3.99.18 gave only one Hitler quote with 'fortune -m Hitler', and
I failed to realize how that would match the properties given in the
original PR (I'm too young and too detached, I guess).
*Expanding* from that, some people who report offensive
fortunes in the future may understandably have difficulties in
describing a problem that causes them emotional distress. Those who
then try to correct the situation may not realize what the offensive
part is, and this may well lead to communication problems where nobody
is at fault, yet meaningful and polite discussion may prove elusive at
best. Hopefully, a mutual understanding will still be reached, even
when everybody is using a language foreign to them.
--
#######======------ http://www.selonen.org/arto/ --------========########
Everstinkuja 5 B 35 Don't mind doing it.
FI-02600 Espoo arto@selonen.org Don't mind not doing it.
Finland tel +358 50 560 4826 Don't know anything about it.
From: fredb@immanent.net (Frederick Bruckman)
To: "Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca>
Cc: gnats-bugs@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: misc/33495: Offensive quote in netbsd fortune package
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:31:56 -0500 (CDT)
In article <000301c679b8$329f1e70$5ac6cd84@iitsdweiss>,
"Daniel Weiss" <dweiss@alcor.concordia.ca> writes:
>
> A highly intelligent man should take a primitive woman. Imagine if on top
> of everything else, I had a woman who interfered with my work.
> -- Adolf Hitler
>
> A woman must be a cute, cuddly, naive little thing -- tender, sweet, and
> stupid.
> -- Adolf Hitler
>
>
> There's a good spot to draw the line. It is discriminatory to over half of
> the world's population. Not to mention all the ethnicities Hitler tried to
> wipe out. I'm asking that you think before selecting the quotations as your
> actions affect others.
Dan, you're missing something very important. Those quotes were
*obviously* meant to be ironic. In the U.S. in the recent past,
sexism was acceptable like Naziism never was. The quotes are
an attempt to smear sexists by association (with Adolf Hitler).
Try substituting "Adolf Hitler" with some hated daemon of your
own, and see if it makes more sense.
The real problem with censorship, is that censors are witless.
I agree though, that it's not the duty of the computer science
lab personnel to explain "irony" to incoming freshman, let alone
professors and administrators, so putting those in the offensive
category seems to be appropriate.
Frederick
State-Changed-From-To: open->closed
State-Changed-By: riz@netbsd.org
State-Changed-When: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 04:22:00 +0000
State-Changed-Why:
The originally pointed-out quotes have been moved to the -o database; the
wider discussion belongs on a mailing list, not the PR database.
>Unformatted:
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